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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 3/11/2010 10:47:20 AM
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AboundinginHisGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
quote:
ORIGINAL: RoderickSpode
Although it's by no means an indication that ghosts (as departed human spirits) exist, there's nothing to suggest that it wasn't Samuel who appeared to Saul.
Do you really think that the Lord God would allow one of Satan's followers to have dominion and authority over one of His own, and be able to recall him out of His presence? I don't.
It doesn't really matter what we think God would do. He is God and can do whatever He pleases. Also look at what God allowed Satan to Job.
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"Sin for the Christian is a burden which afflicts him rather than a pleasure which delights him." - John MacArthur
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 3/11/2010 10:49:25 AM
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RoderickSpode
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
quote:
ORIGINAL: RoderickSpode
I don't think it's an issue of the medium calling Samuel back, as it is God allowing her as a tool for Samuel to come back to give the message to Saul.
And you reckon that God would be ok with using someone who would use methods that are an abomination to Him in order to do it? I don't.
I don't think God was ok with divorce, but their was provisions for it. I don't think God was particularly ok with slavery, but gave strict guidelines/laws so it wouldn't equal Egyptian slavery. I don't think it was ok for King David to have had relations with Bathsheba, but from that union came the most intelligent man and king that ever lived. And I think you would agree with me that Solomon was saved.
The bottom line is, Saul should never have consulted a medium. We can't place God in a box and claim that He wouldn't convey a message to Saul through something we're prohibited from. It doesn't mean it's ok to consult mediums. It just means that apparently, from what we read from scripture, God had Samuel convey a message to Saul by means of how Saul sought Samuel. And again, if you read the scripture, you can see that it was not a typical scenario for the medium.
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 3/11/2010 10:52:41 AM
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Eutychus
Posts: 9201
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Memaw.
IF ghosts are the fallen angels, then what do we do with this?
quote:
Jude 1:6And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.
But what do we do about this?:
They were imploring Him not to command them to go away into the abyss.
-Luke 8:31
Do you propose that God created a separate group of evil beings called demons or do you think Jesus and Paul were less than accurate in teaching that the dead are either with Him or in inescapable torment?
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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 3/11/2010 11:27:32 AM
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PrimaryOvertone
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
Demons and fallen angels are one in the same. Actually, they are described in the Greek NT using very different words. They are not the same.
Angels, fallen or not, have glorified heavenly bodies. Demons are described as not having bodies and longing to inhabit a body. (ref the Gadredene demoniac)
Dave,
Just because two different words were used does not mean we are talking about two different things. There are several different words used in the NT which are translated into english as God. Do you think that these were other gods? There is no indication that angels always have bodies in scripture. They have the ability to comunicate with man in a form that looks like a body but that does not mean that they are not spirit. God appeared to Abraham in a body in the OT do we believe that God can only appear this way? No, He has proved otherwise. In the same sense demons are spirits as well. They do not need a body, they choose to inhabit a body in order to carry out the will of Satan. The demons calling themselves Leigon did not care whether they were in a body or not they just did not want to be sent "away", presumably to hell. If the demons wanted to indwell a body because they NEEDED one then why cause the pigs to kill themselves. That would immediately work against their hope to hold a body.
There is just no indication that a body is necessary for God or for angels or demons. They are spiritual beings. They are not required to have a body.
As to apparitions and ghosts, has anyone considered that there could be other spiritual beings other than angels and demons that exist in the world. There are mythological creatures like sprites and fairys and such in all kinds of cultures around the world. Is it possible that these creatures exist and are what people see when they claim to see ghosts? I don't know.
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 3/11/2010 11:33:25 AM
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manda59
Posts: 7689
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
quote:
ORIGINAL: RoderickSpode
Although it's by no means an indication that ghosts (as departed human spirits) exist, there's nothing to suggest that it wasn't Samuel who appeared to Saul.
Do you really think that the Lord God would allow one of Satan's followers to have dominion and authority over one of His own, and be able to recall him out of His presence? I don't.
It doesn't really matter what we think God would do. He is God and can do whatever He pleases. Also look at what God allowed Satan to Job.
With what God allowed Satan to do to Job, none of His laws were compromised, nothing was done that was against God's very character/nature.
Yes, God can do whatever He pleases, but it would not please Him to do anything that was contrary to His character and nature. And to use a medium, who practised "arts" that are an abomination to Him, would be just that.
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Were Ghosts People? - 3/11/2010 11:37:29 AM
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pink..
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Ghosts were never people. Just like angels were never people.
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 3/11/2010 11:58:15 AM
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AboundinginHisGrace
Posts: 273
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
quote:
ORIGINAL: RoderickSpode
Although it's by no means an indication that ghosts (as departed human spirits) exist, there's nothing to suggest that it wasn't Samuel who appeared to Saul.
Do you really think that the Lord God would allow one of Satan's followers to have dominion and authority over one of His own, and be able to recall him out of His presence? I don't.
It doesn't really matter what we think God would do. He is God and can do whatever He pleases. Also look at what God allowed Satan to Job.
With what God allowed Satan to do to Job, none of His laws were compromised, nothing was done that was against God's very character/nature.
Yes, God can do whatever He pleases, but it would not please Him to do anything that was contrary to His character and nature. And to use a medium, who practised "arts" that are an abomination to Him, would be just that.
Murder, disease, etc these were brought about by sin. If you look at Job 2:10 Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil? Remember God can use things that were meant for evil for good. I am not saying that I believe in ghosts. I have never seen one. But I am not going to say that others have not. If people have seen something I do not believe it is lost souls of humans. On a lighter note I can't resist saying this "I AINT AFRAID OF NO GHOST" 
_____________________________
"Sin for the Christian is a burden which afflicts him rather than a pleasure which delights him." - John MacArthur
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 3/11/2010 12:05:25 PM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
Murder, disease, etc these were brought about by sin. If you look at Job 2:10 Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil? Remember God can use things that were meant for evil for good.
We will have to agree to disagree.
I do not believe that God would use a necromancer to achieve His purpose.
quote:
If people have seen something I do not believe it is lost souls of humans.
We agree on this at least.
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"Manda – I can often skip posting 'cause she's got it covered!", sen10tious, July 2010
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 3/11/2010 1:56:03 PM
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sen10tious
Posts: 208
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
I do not believe that God would use a necromancer to achieve His purpose.
You have used a few different ways of saying this and some I will agree with and others I can't. I do think God used the necromancer's shell, that is, her dust and clay body, as a focal point for Saul, but the power was all God's.
quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59 ~ earlier
Do you really think that the Lord God would allow one of Satan's followers to have dominion and authority over one of His own
No, I agree that the medium never had dominion over Samuel. I do think it was really Samuel because of the coat, otherwise that is a superfluous detail. The witch of Endor was shocked that he actually showed up; that tends to indicate that she knew that it wasn't her 'dominion and authority' causing it.
My guess is that God called Samuel up because that was the best, and maybe the only way to get through to Saul at that point. Scripture records that Saul was "greatly shaken." Actually, it was a very loving act for God to call up Samuel, just this one last chance. Saul clearly saw how depraved he had become—so desperate that he was sneaking around in disguise and breaking his own law. ... And then Sam says, "tomorrow you and your sons will be with me." I don't think Saul was afraid of dying so much, or of losing the army of Israel so much as he was finally in a state of mind where he stopped and said. "What have I done!" But to know that he's going to be with Samuel tomorrow! If he was truly broken, then he had to be really humbled by that. A humbled Saul would have seen God's mercy and realized that he had run out the limits, and it seems that he had used up his sons' creditline in the mercy account as well.
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 3/11/2010 2:04:28 PM
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stampinlady
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Go back and read the whole text. God allowed Samuel to appear. If it were not Samuel God would have said differently.
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Deb
There is no "cosmic dog whislte. It's gonna be loud folks !!!
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 3/11/2010 2:34:23 PM
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EsonTheSearcher
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There are no such as "ghosts"...if you mean the spirits of the deceased are wandering around on earth for some reason. The biggest reason I believe is that nowhere in Scripture does it say that some's spirit hangs on earth upon the death of the body. The spirit has a destination...and it ain't staying here. That is stated both directly and indirectly in many places.
As far as what a ghost actually is, I have never really thought about it. I don't doubt what some supposed ghosts are the work of demonic activity, but I think the biggest chunk of ghostly acitivity is the work of the mind more than anything.
One thing that I used to really puzzle over when I saw a picture of a supposed ghost was physics: in the heyday of spiritualism, there were hundreds of "ghost" photos: really plainly visible ghosts walking up and down stairs was the most common. I always wondered,
"How can something that can pass thru walls walk on stairs?"
It is like the Star Trek episodes where someone would be ghost-like...they could pass thru the bulkhead of the Enterprise, yet they were able to walk on the floors.
And I also believe that Samuel actually appeared to Saul...although I doubt the witch actually expected him to. The text indicates that she was quite surprised to see him. This is the only time that I believe any "ghost" actually appeared to someone. It was a special case that God allowed to tell Saul his future, if you will.
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 3/11/2010 2:56:58 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 9201
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From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
Go back and read the whole text. God allowed Samuel to appear. If it were not Samuel God would have said differently.
I don't recall God being quoted in the passage about the apparition. Was He?
And if God was quoted as commenting, does the passage say that it was the ghost of Samuel that appeared before Saul?
And when Jesus tells us that there's a great gulf fixed between the godly departed and the ungodly, do you suppose that the saved can be called back so easily to earth by witches, a group God condemns as an abomination?
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 3/11/2010 3:40:23 PM
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PrimaryOvertone
Posts: 87
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
Go back and read the whole text. God allowed Samuel to appear. If it were not Samuel God would have said differently.
I don't recall God being quoted in the passage about the apparition. Was He?
And if God was quoted as commenting, does the passage say that it was the ghost of Samuel that appeared before Saul?
And when Jesus tells us that there's a great gulf fixed between the godly departed and the ungodly, do you suppose that the saved can be called back so easily to earth by witches, a group God condemns as an abomination?
I think that the fact that the witch was surprised by all of this speaks volumns. I think that she was used to fooling suckers into believing that she could comunicate with the dead. It was a parlor trick. God decided to send Samuel to give Saul one last message. It had nothing to do with the witch. She was there and the fact that Saul was sinning was important but there is nothing in the passage that says she actually had any power.
As to God being quoted in the passage, The book of second Samuel is in the BIBLE which is the word of God. It was inspired (breathed) by the mouth of God into the hearts of men whom He chose to pen it. So, yes God said it. His word says it was Samuel. It does not say it was something like Samuel. I Samuel 28:16 "Then Samuel said, . . . " is plain words to me.
As to whether God can/will use something evil, Lets look at another example, I Kings 22:19-23
In this passage God uses a lying spirit to convince the "Prophets" to tell Ahab to go to war. Is lying evil? Yes. Did God use it for good? Yes.
Is it a good idea to make statements about what God will/won't do? No. He is God. His ways are higher than our ways. We cannot judge the lawgiver.
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 3/11/2010 4:41:22 PM
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stampinlady
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quote:
it was the ghost of Samuel
The NASB doesn't say 'ghost.'
It was Samuel that's why the witch was so shocked like the above poster mentioned.
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Deb
There is no "cosmic dog whislte. It's gonna be loud folks !!!
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 3/11/2010 4:47:09 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 9201
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
quote:
it was the ghost of Samuel
The NASB doesn't say 'ghost.'
It was Samuel that's why the witch was so shocked like the above poster mentioned.
Most mediums would be shocked if a demonic presence showed up because the vast majority are hucksters that con people.
I'm still going with what Jesus (WHO WAS GOD IN THE FLESH) and Paul revealed about dead humans. I'm also not buying that a human medium, real or not, can summon up the dead saints of God.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 3/11/2010 4:48:47 PM
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PitaKat
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quote:
do you suppose that the saved can be called back so easily to earth by witches, a group God condemns as an abomination?
If God allows it, then yes. I assume there is a reason it happened that way. Maybe He orchestrated things that way so that there would be a heart change within the woman...
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 3/11/2010 4:53:01 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 9201
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From: Dothan, AL
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The king said to her, "Do not be afraid; but what do you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I see a divine being coming up out of the earth." -1 Samuel 28:13
Is that where the spirits of OT saints went when they died, someplace into the earth?
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 3/11/2010 5:12:10 PM
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PrimaryOvertone
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Eutychus,
I quoted the Bible verse for you. The narator of the Bible (God) said that "Then Samuel said", how much more clear do you want it. This was Samuel and not some demon.
We don't know where heaven is. The NT says that we are right this moment seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. So, directionality will not prove anything. I will not get into questions of Sheol, and limbo, and hades, etc. but even the most learned thelogians cannot tell you for sure what happened to Old Testament saint before Christ's resurection.
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 3/11/2010 5:18:13 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 9201
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From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PrimaryOvertone
..how much more clear do you want it...
Clear enough to match up with what the remainder of scripture reveals on the matter - like with the examples I've cited several times, Jesus and Paul. I'll be perfectly fine with that kind interpretation.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 3/11/2010 5:26:37 PM
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stampinlady
Posts: 3124
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Northern IL
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quote:
I'm still going with what Jesus (WHO WAS GOD IN THE FLESH) and Paul revealed about dead humans. I'm also not buying that a human medium, real or not, can summon up the dead saints of God.
God allowed it just like he spoke through a donkey.
_____________________________
Deb
There is no "cosmic dog whislte. It's gonna be loud folks !!!
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 3/11/2010 5:35:07 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 9201
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
quote:
I'm still going with what Jesus (WHO WAS GOD IN THE FLESH) and Paul revealed about dead humans. I'm also not buying that a human medium, real or not, can summon up the dead saints of God.
God allowed it just like he spoke through a donkey.
Apples and Oranges. The donkey was not declared an abomination by God and no demonic spirit spoke through the donkey.
If you wish to believe in ghosts of dead humans, saved or otherwise, walking the earth that's your choice. But the revelation on the matter from the NT Gospels onward do not support such a view, IMHO.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 3/11/2010 5:41:57 PM
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PrimaryOvertone
Posts: 87
Joined: 2/5/2010
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: PrimaryOvertone
..how much more clear do you want it...
Clear enough to match up with what the remainder of scripture reveals on the matter - like with the examples I've cited several times, Jesus and Paul. I'll be perfectly fine with that kind interpretation.
You want an example using Jesus. Mark 9 is the passage detailing the transfiguration. Who was there? Elijah (a man who never died) and Moses (a man whom God buried) both of these men were saints from heaven yet there they were talking to Jesus on earth. So unless you now want to argue with a NT example as well as one from the old you have an example of someone dead coming from heaven and appearing on earth. While this logic is chronilogically backwards, for you I will use it: If it happened in the New Testament then it could have happened in the old.
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 3/11/2010 5:46:47 PM
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manda59
Posts: 7689
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PrimaryOvertone
You want an example using Jesus. Mark 9 is the passage detailing the transfiguration. Who was there? Elijah (a man who never died) and Moses (a man whom God buried) both of these men were saints from heaven yet there they were talking to Jesus on earth. So unless you now want to argue with a NT example as well as one from the old you have an example of someone dead coming from heaven and appearing on earth. While this logic is chronilogically backwards, for you I will use it: If it happened in the New Testament then it could have happened in the old.
Last time I looked Elijah and Moses weren't "summoned up" out of the earth by a necromancer.
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"Manda – I can often skip posting 'cause she's got it covered!", sen10tious, July 2010
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 3/11/2010 5:56:07 PM
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DrumStudent
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I will say no, because ghosts don't exist.
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RE: Were Ghosts People? - 3/11/2010 11:07:28 PM
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stampinlady
Posts: 3124
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quote:
f you wish to believe in ghosts of dead humans, saved or otherwise,
Who said anything about it being a ghost??? It was Samuel. And for what it's worth I do not believe that the spirits of the dead roam the earth. It's not biblical at all.
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Deb
There is no "cosmic dog whislte. It's gonna be loud folks !!!
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