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RE: Are Christians required to help the poor? - 3/11/2010 11:51:54 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: x_SoliDeoGloria_x
quote:
So using this Matthew 25 passage as proof text that Chrisitians are to help and feed everyone in the world just won't pass muster.
How about the command to love our neighbor as ourselves?
Does that one say we are to give to all poor in the World, or any for that matter?
Just asking.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Are Christians required to help the poor? - 3/11/2010 12:41:32 PM
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gcsmithjr
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quote:
"The least of these" in verse 45 is more than obviously referencing verse 40 which espressly states that it is helping the brethern that we will be judged on.
So using this Matthew 25 passage as proof text that Chrisitians are to help and feed everyone in the world just won't pass muster.
It takes some serious interpretative gymnastics to try to get Matthew 25 to refer only to "the brethren", by which I'm assuming you mean that it only applies to our brothers and sisters in Christ.
First of all, context of the verse itself makes it clear that Jesus is not referring only to brothers - in verse 43 he says "I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in". The word "stranger" (xenos) specifically refers to a foreigner or someone who is unknown, yet somehow you are saying that we are only required to help those who are unknown to us if we know that they are a brother/sister in Christ? That doesn't make any sense logically.
In addition that that, Vine's Dictionary notes that the usage you are proposing for that text is among the least likely, and least common uses of the word brother (adelphos) - while specifically noting that, in Matthew 25, the word adelphos refers to mankind - this verse is actually one of the examples quoted in Vine's where the word adelphos means "mankind".
Uses of the word adelphos from Vine's Dictionary:
(1) male children of the same parents, Matt, 1:2; 14:3;
(2) male descendants of the same parents, Acts 7:23,26; Heb. 7:5;
(3) male children of the same mother, Matt. 13:55; 1 Cor. 9:5; Gal. 1:19;
(4) people of the same nationality, Acts 3:17,22; Rom. 9:3. With "men" (aner, "male"), prefixed, it is used in addresses only, Acts 2:29,37, etc.;
(5) any man, a neighbor, Luke 10:29; Matt. 5:22; 7:3;
(6) persons united by a common interest, Matt. 5:47; (7) persons united by a common calling, Rev. 22:9;
(8) mankind, Matt. 25:40; Heb. 2:17;
(9) the disciples, and so, by implication, all believers, Matt. 28:10; John 20:17;
(10) believers, apart from sex, Matt. 23:8; Acts 1:15; Rom. 1:13; 1 Thess. 1:4; Rev. 19:10 (the word "sisters" is used of believers, only in 1 Tim. 5:2);
(11) believers, with aner, "male," prefixed, and with "or sister" added, 1 Cor. 7:14 (RV), 15; Jas. 2:15, male as distinct from female, Acts 1:16; 15:7,13, but not Acts 6:3.
Even if your interpretation that adelphos refers only to those who share our faith in Christ were correct, it seems we would then be required to answer "yes" to the question posed in the OP, because at a bare minimum this text makes it clear that God requires us to help our brothers and sisters in Christ who are in need around the world.
< Message edited by gcsmithjr -- 3/11/2010 5:49:54 PM >
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RE: Are Christians required to help the poor? - 3/11/2010 2:47:57 PM
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x_SoliDeoGloria_x
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: x_SoliDeoGloria_x
quote:
So using this Matthew 25 passage as proof text that Chrisitians are to help and feed everyone in the world just won't pass muster.
How about the command to love our neighbor as ourselves?
Does that one say we are to give to all poor in the World, or any for that matter?
Just asking.
Thanks
RC
Obviously it doesn't say that we are to give to all the poor in the world. Just because that would be logistically impossible, does that mean that we are not obligated to give to anyone? If I have more than I need and I am aware of someone who has lost a job and struggling to keep his family fed, am I not obligated by the comand to love my neighbor as myself to help these people out?
Just answering.
_____________________________
"Not by work going before grace shall I deserve grace, nor by my work following grace shall I deserve eternal life; but to him that believes, sin is pardoned and righteousness imputed." -- Martin Luther
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RE: Are Christians required to help the poor? - 3/11/2010 3:01:54 PM
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Corne
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Someone needs to tell the good Samaritan, he gave in vain.
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RE: Are Christians required to help the poor? - 3/11/2010 3:19:48 PM
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SteelCurtain
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SeminoleTom
Someone on here a week or so ago said we don't want people depending on the government becuase they end up puting their trust in the government instead of Jesus. Good point.
That begs the question: are Christians required to help the poor? I know they will always be among us but are we expected to help them?
Thanks
Yes
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Pray simply, wait sometimes, stick to the path.
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RE: Are Christians required to help the poor? - 3/11/2010 9:30:12 PM
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SonInMe1
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quote:
soninme1,
....in english this means you have no rebuttal....
or you did not understand what I said since questioning how we give is just outside of your box.
Can "you" ( that is a general you, not a specific you ) tell me where stewardship is involved in charity?
Can you tell me that every person asking for charity should recieve it?
My God is Jesus Christ, not unlimited compassion and worship of making myself feel better because I bent waaaay down to help those poor people.
Love. Love does not delight in evil. Love does not enable the poor. Love does not create poverty through excessive government programs. Love is Jesus Christ, not a welfare check. Love is giving of self...
and not telling anyone about it. Its about helping someone and they never find out who it is.
Its about changing someone, not enabling them to continue in the sin that caused their poverty.
Sometimes helping someone....is letting them suffer. Any...real...parent knows this. Life is not easy nor was it meant to be.
Now, the tithe issue. As I said, repeatedly, I used the scriptures to illustrate that we, as in humans, have responsibilites toward our financial well being. In other words, actions have results. If you act in certain ways, poverty is around the corner. If you continue to act in those ways, no matter how much someone gives you your needs, you will continue in poverty.
My usage iof the scripture was NOT an entire dissertation on the verses. It was in the context of this thread.
I am sorry that being challenged is such a hardship.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Are Christians required to help the poor? - 3/12/2010 9:30:43 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gcsmithjr
it seems we would then be required to answer "yes" to the question posed in the OP, because at a bare minimum this text makes it clear that God requires us to help our brothers and sisters in Christ who are in need around the world.
And I agree with and practice the above.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Are Christians required to help the poor? - 3/12/2010 5:14:26 PM
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ushalk
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let us not make the act of giving a religous rule or religous work. rather let us give with a cheerful heart that christ is exalted and not us. showing the love compassion and mercy. therefore allowing them to see christ in us. however so not be blind and look at the poor as unsaved or ungodly for what they do not have. the heart is not read nor the spirit tested by the physical things of this world.
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if we hide the truth we kill a soul.
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RE: Are Christians required to help the poor? - 3/12/2010 6:09:54 PM
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blue1914
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Does anyone wonder why this is even a topic on a Christian forum?
Not to disparage the OP-for today's Christian world, this is indeed a topic of reasonable debate, but I guess I wonder-is anyone other than me seeing anything wrong with this picture?
Is there ever a time when Jesus saw people in front of him hungry or needy and just turned his back on them? Didn't he feed the 5,000 because they would be too hungry to make it home without being fed? Don't we see in the gospel that some people came to hear him just because he fed people-sound kind of unworthy to me-they should have been out working instead of freeloading off a hippie type dude walking around with 12 other guys. He did MIRACLES to feed people-whether they "deserved" the food or not!
Mormons (a false perversion of the gospel of Jesus Christ) store up 1 year's worth of food at all times-1 YEAR with the understanding that should they need to break into their food storehouse, they will share with those around them who did not prepare. Why can the false church get loving people more than the real church of Jesus Christ?
If we are little Christs (Christians), is this really a debate at all? And since that question is rhetorical (yes it obviously is a debate) is that a reasonable answer that Christians should accept?
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RE: Are Christians required to help the poor? - 3/12/2010 7:02:38 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1882
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: gcsmithjr
it seems we would then be required to answer "yes" to the question posed in the OP, because at a bare minimum this text makes it clear that God requires us to help our brothers and sisters in Christ who are in need around the world.
And I agree with and practice the above.
Thanks
RC
And yet, food for thought:
Mt 5:42 "Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you. 43 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.' 44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven ; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 "For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have ? Do not even the tax collectors do the same ? 47 "If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same ? 48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
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RE: Are Christians required to help the poor? - 3/12/2010 7:26:30 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: gcsmithjr
it seems we would then be required to answer "yes" to the question posed in the OP, because at a bare minimum this text makes it clear that God requires us to help our brothers and sisters in Christ who are in need around the world.
And I agree with and practice the above.
Thanks
RC
And yet, food for thought:
Mt 5:42 "Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you. 43 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.' 44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven ; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 "For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have ? Do not even the tax collectors do the same ? 47 "If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same ? 48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
I percieve verse 42 to be referencing fellow Believers and that "Neighbors" are fellow believers, because we are told to come out from among the evil.
Love the enemies, but the passage says nothing about supporting them or theior evil ways.
Please show Scripture that says we are to give food, support, etc. to the wicked.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Are Christians required to help the poor? - 3/12/2010 7:41:15 PM
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Corne
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In above scripture, What does love your enemies mean? In what way are we to treat the non believers that will be different than the tax collectors?
It gives the example that God gives rain and sunshine to both the evil and the good. Rain and sunshine are vital to eating.
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RE: Are Christians required to help the poor? - 3/12/2010 9:12:56 PM
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SonInMe1
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I don't think anyone has implied we should not help the poor.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Are Christians required to help the poor? - 3/12/2010 9:29:07 PM
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x_SoliDeoGloria_x
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
I don't think anyone has implied we should not help the poor.
RC seems to be saying that we should make sure that the poor are believers before we help them, because if they are not, we are not under any obligation to help them. On the contrary, we should not give them food, support, etc., because that would be supporting their evil ways. Maybe I am interpreting him incorrectly, but that seems to be the gist of Post#36.
_____________________________
"Not by work going before grace shall I deserve grace, nor by my work following grace shall I deserve eternal life; but to him that believes, sin is pardoned and righteousness imputed." -- Martin Luther
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RE: Are Christians required to help the poor? - 3/13/2010 7:28:53 AM
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SonInMe1
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I think you can find biblical support for RC's position.
I also believe christian charity comes with something more than just meeting a need. It comes with Christ and Christ must aklways be represented and I think, keeping christian charity pure...without secular help...would be biblically consistant.
There are many christian charity groups throughout the world that serve not only christians but seculars as well. From Crisis Pregnancy Centers to Orphans to Hurricane relief, christians go to where there is a need.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Are Christians required to help the poor? - 3/13/2010 7:40:56 AM
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stimulus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe
My point is....we can postion oursleves for the blessings of God. There are many biblical factors in this and, of course, the bottom line is always God's will and most of these actions are not done by those who suffer poverty.
Bottom line is the majority of those in poverty made the decision to do so.
The majority of those in poverty are children. They didn't make any decision that led to their circumstances.
The majority of the poor also live in developing countries where jobs and personal economic growth are greatly limited. Many face discrimination in employment because of their race, gender, religion, or disability. They too didn't choose poverty.
quote:
The best kinds of charity should enable people to get out of their poverties, not keep them in poverty.
I agree with this, although I think there is a role for immediate relief aid to play, too. But there are an increasing number of charities that are working to help people escape poverty, often through starting small businesses. Kiva makes micro-loans to people, helping them buy cattle to raise, the first inventory of items to sell as a street vendor, a sewing machine to mend garments, etc. Heifer International does the same, focusing on livestock and agricultural projects. Other charities focus on education, so people can get a better job, and groups like International Justice Mission work to get justice for victims of illegal property seizure and other crimes so they can be able to acquire wealth.
My point? It's fine if you aren't a big supporter of short-term, immediate charity. There are plenty of other options. A couple good books on the subject are Compassion, Justice and the Christian Life: Rethinking Ministry to the Poor are A Billion Bootstraps: Microcredit, Barefoot Banking, and The Business Solution for Ending Poverty.
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RE: Are Christians required to help the poor? - 3/13/2010 11:19:28 AM
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makarizo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Elena1030
The context of the OP seemed to frame the question in light of what many say about the government's role in taking care of people (or rather, what isn't and shouldn't be the government's role and responsibility). To me, there seemed to be more of a political tinge to the OP's pondering. Thus, my response..... which I find interesting that no one has responded to. (I'd like to know others don't see me as hard-hearted! But... that's my flesh talking: pride.)
the government takes care of the poor out of obligation, it is turned into a law, and eliminates the 'heart condition'
a christian takes care of the poor because of love ....."the Love of God that lives inside of them" ... their is no law (under the law = under a curse), maybe there are people out there who say they are christian, but try to stick labels and conditions on which poor people are okay to help, and justify reasons for not helping........ how can they say the love of God lives in them??? (1 Jn 3:17)
I don't want to be put over on the goat side..... put me on the sheep side.
I am so sorry that religion in America, with all it grandiose, humble, charitable, organized, selective giving has failed soooooooooooo miserably. "kinda good" is no where near good enough.
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RE: Are Christians required to help the poor? - 3/13/2010 1:17:40 PM
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Corne
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
I think you can find biblical support for RC's position.
Okay, do it. And address the scripture already provided.
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RE: Are Christians required to help the poor? - 3/14/2010 4:56:30 AM
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SonInMe1
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quote:
The majority of those in poverty are children. They didn't make any decision that led to their circumstances.
Guess that makes parenting...important.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Are Christians required to help the poor? - 3/14/2010 10:53:58 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
In above scripture, What does love your enemies mean? In what way are we to treat the non believers that will be different than the tax collectors?
We are not to hate those who come against us as Christian, we are to love them, share the Gospel with them, and pray for their eyes to be opened.
Scripture doen not say we are to bring the wicked into our foal, but to come out from amongst the wicked.
(2Co 6:14) Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers; for what fellowship does righteousness have with lawlessness? And what partnership does light have with darkness?
(2Co 6:15) And what agreement does Christ have with Belial? Or what part does a believer have with an unbeliever?
(2Co 6:16) And what agreement does a temple of God have with idols? For you are the temple of the living God, as God has said, "I will dwell in them and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."
(2Co 6:17) Therefore come out from among them and be separated, says the Lord, and do not touch the unclean thing. And I will receive you
(2Co 6:18) and I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Are Christians required to help the poor? - 3/14/2010 10:56:26 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: x_SoliDeoGloria_x
RC seems to be saying that we should make sure that the poor are believers before we help them, because if they are not, we are not under any obligation to help them. On the contrary, we should not give them food, support, etc., because that would be supporting their evil ways. Maybe I am interpreting him incorrectly, but that seems to be the gist of Post#36.
Then please post Scripture that tells us to give aid, support, etc. to the wicked of this world.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Are Christians required to help the poor? - 3/14/2010 12:01:18 PM
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upNORTder
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Luke 6:27-36 (New International Version)
Love for Enemies
27"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.
32"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
Luke 10:25-37 (New International Version)
The Parable of the Good Samaritan
25On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
26"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
27He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
28"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
29But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"
30In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. 35The next day he took out two silver coins[c] and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'
36"Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"
37The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."
Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."
Basically, I think we should help all we can and let God determine the recipients worthiness.
_____________________________
The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie -- deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.
John F. Kennedy
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RE: Are Christians required to help the poor? - 3/14/2010 1:30:32 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1882
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
In above scripture, What does love your enemies mean? In what way are we to treat the non believers that will be different than the tax collectors?
We are not to hate those who come against us as Christian, we are to love them, share the Gospel with them, and pray for their eyes to be opened.
Scripture doen not say we are to bring the wicked into our foal, but to come out from amongst the wicked.
(2Co 6:14) Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers; for what fellowship does righteousness have with lawlessness? And what partnership does light have with darkness?
(2Co 6:15) And what agreement does Christ have with Belial? Or what part does a believer have with an unbeliever?
(2Co 6:16) And what agreement does a temple of God have with idols? For you are the temple of the living God, as God has said, "I will dwell in them and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."
(2Co 6:17) Therefore come out from among them and be separated, says the Lord, and do not touch the unclean thing. And I will receive you
(2Co 6:18) and I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.
Thanks
RC
Wow, the not being unequally yoked principle being used to not give anything to the unsaved poor? And you didn't address the scripture mentioned which is mostly posted again #44. But in Matthew 5 we are told that GOD gives rain to the just and unjust, and we are to be like Him.
So I guess, we are not to accept wages from unsaved, or give wages to the unbeliever either?
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RE: Are Christians required to help the poor? - 3/14/2010 2:00:48 PM
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makarizo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Scripture doen not say we are (supposed) to bring the wicked into our foal,
do you tell your congregation to not help poor unbelievers? to in fact let them starve because they are wicked people???
that is what I hear you saying.
..... are you ready to say: "when were you hungry Lord and I didn't feed you?"
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RE: Are Christians required to help the poor? - 3/14/2010 4:24:46 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Corne
So I guess, we are not to accept wages from unsaved, or give wages to the unbeliever either?
I personally would not work or take wages or assistance from a non-Believer.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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