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RE: A deep question I haven’t found the answer to. - 3/9/2010 3:57:11 PM
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sen10tious
Posts: 208
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
So what do you do with this passage?
1Ki 22:20 The LORD said, ‘Who shall entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ One said one thing; and another said another.
1Ki 22:21 A spirit came out and stood before the LORD, and said, ‘I will entice him.’
1Ki 22:22 The LORD said to him, ‘How?’ He said, ‘I will go out and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ He said, ‘You will entice him, and will also prevail. Go out and do so.’
Dave W,
God never told good prophets to lie. There was a lying spirit who wanted to lie, so God says, in effect, "Have at." It is also chronicled in 2 Chronicles 18. Macaiah is telling of a vision he has of the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing on His right and on His left. The scene is not all that different than in the first chapter of the book of Job when Satan himself gets permission to attack all that Job has.
Ahab had lived by lies; he had acquired goods and lands by lies. Ahab will now fall by his own devices and die by lies. A lying spirit came before the Lord and the Lord did not restrain it. What is so complicated about that? A lying spirit volunteers to go and speak through the false prophets. Ahab is gonna get tempted. Good people get tempted; the thing that makes them good is that they do not give in to temptation.
Just because God is able to use wickedness to His own end does not mean that a person should seek to be wicked. It is neither your right nor your point of authority to decide to tempt somebody else.
The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil. Proverbs 16:14
Back up one chapter to 1 Kings 21. Ahab wanted a vineyard. Naboth said "No." Jezebel produces false witnesses and has Naboth killed. Ahab goes to get his vineyard. The Lord uses Elijah to pronounce judgment. In 1 Kings 21:27, Ahab "gets religion" and puts on the sackcloth. He gets a short reprieve. But in the end, Ahab lies about who he is and goes out in disguise and is killed. …the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Ps 9:16
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RE: A deep question I haven’t found the answer to. - 3/9/2010 7:46:50 PM
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Walker311
Posts: 906
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A cop lived across the street where I grew up. One day when I was 19, I turned into my street and saw a small crowd of men. I learned some kids had just broken into a house and stolen a gun and money and this cop and other adults asked if I could help. This was because I was smaller and faster.
Make a long story short, we eventually caught up with one of them with my help and the officer/neighbor used a 2x4 on the backside of the kid who eventually said that he would take us to where he threw the gun/stuff down. I was shocked but soon realized that the police must often use tactics that normal citizens would not and should not use in order to get results.
Jason, there is no doubt in my mind that God can and will guide you in your career by helping you make the right choices even if you sometimes feel that you are crossing the line. You are a good man with a heart after God and He will greatly use you.
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RE: A deep question I haven’t found the answer to. - 3/10/2010 10:29:00 AM
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sen10tious
Posts: 208
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southern US
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
And then, despite me doing my job with integrity and honor, folks like you come along and spew blanket judgements against all those who do an impossible job with honor simply because of the badge they have pinned to their shirt and nothing more. I'll be honest: I get more respect from most of the inmates I watch over than I saw in your post. Why is that?
You want to talk about false accusations? Go re-read your post.
Since this was a direct verbal attack on "folks like you," I suppose I will be allowed to respond?
Show me the blanket judgments against all. Quote it back to me.
It is not there. One-third is not "all." "Many" is not "most." "Many" could be 15% of a department regularly engaging in lies and bullying behaviors to "get to the truth" "Many, many' would then be 30%; this is still not "all."
If you cannot quote back to me where I "spew blanket judgements [sic] against all who do an impossible job with honor simply because of the badge they have pinned to their shirt and nothing more," then I shall conclude that was a dishonest statement.
Even the minority that I do accuse are not being blamed because of a pin on a uniform. I indict them because they knowingly choose to lie.
Lies do not accompany salvation. If you are lying, you are using satanic tactics.
The post from BamaJAF illustrates this. Using Satan's tactics, he found a shovel in the trunk of a car. Of course he did; this is exactly how cops get lured in. One big case and they are off and rationalizing.
You have no idea how many people you have hurt or how many innocents were pressured into taking plea bargains to "make it all go away" because they knew the cop would lie. You never see the effects that play out years later. Your post, along with BamaJAF's, has substantially reinforced my belief that a cop is likely to lie to me.
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RE: A deep question I haven’t found the answer to. - 3/10/2010 12:45:56 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 7497
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sen10tious
Show me the blanket judgments against all. Quote it back to me.
It is not there. One-third is not "all." "Many" is not "most." "Many" could be 15% of a department regularly engaging in lies and bullying behaviors to "get to the truth" "Many, many' would then be 30%; this is still not "all."
If you cannot quote back to me where I "spew blanket judgements [sic] against all who do an impossible job with honor simply because of the badge they have pinned to their shirt and nothing more," then I shall conclude that was a dishonest statement.
Even the minority that I do accuse are not being blamed because of a pin on a uniform. I indict them because they knowingly choose to lie.
You didn't say the minority - you spent an entire post reviling "cops" because they are taught to lie and therefore cannot distinguish the truth. The 1/3 you said were folks who went into law enforcement specifically because they were bullies to start with. You then go on to say many, many (sorry, but I have never in my life seen this type of emphasis used to describe a "minority". Read the dictionary please). You say you do not trust cops. You spent paragraph after paragraph reviling "cops" and how you question how their very career aligns with God (not bad cops with God, but the very profession). Then you conclude your last post saying how you think "a cop" (ie, anyone in uniform) will lie to you. Huh? If you truly believe only a minority are pawns of satan, why would you distrust all?
quote:
Lies do not accompany salvation. If you are lying, you are using satanic tactics.
Since you did not address these Scriptures that I posted earlier, I would like you to explain the following Scriptures to me:
Rahab in Joshua 2 told bald-faced lies to the "bad guys" to protect Israel's spies. Lies - deceit - complete fabrications.
Hebrews 11:31 and James 2:25 say this act of deceit was by faith and credited to her as righteousness.
Is the Bible wrong? Please explain.
quote:
The post from BamaJAF illustrates this. Using Satan's tactics, he found a shovel in the trunk of a car. Of course he did; this is exactly how cops get lured in. One big case and they are off and rationalizing.
Are you kidding me? He caught a sadistic child molester who was probably going to murder that young girl red-handed and you are saying that was of satan because he used the same exact tactic that Rahab used to protect the innocent? 
Contrary to what you have posted, the only use of deceit defended here has been to protect life just as we see with Rahab. No one has said it's ok to lie under oath or in reports or anywhere else. I personally have had to write things in my reports that showed where I *gasp* made a mistake! And yes, I included that!!!
quote:
You have no idea how many people you have hurt or how many innocents were pressured into taking plea bargains to "make it all go away" because they knew the cop would lie. You never see the effects that play out years later. Your post, along with BamaJAF's, has substantially reinforced my belief that a cop is likely to lie to me.
Now you are talking about lying under oath or in reports which is grounds for being fired in every department I know of. And not only will you lose your job, you will lose the ability to EVER serve in law enforcement again, your pension, everything. Contrary to what you see on TV, this is not something rampant in law enforcement and is something you will find universally condemned by those of us in the field. It's not only downright stupid, but illegal and unethical.
BTW - Since you seem to know me as you just accused me of "hurting innocent people", let me tell you a little about me. I have a strong reputation for honesty among my fellow officers and among the "bad guys" I work with. The only time I can ever recall lying, was when I and a fellow officer didn't tell an inmate the entire truth about why we were moving her. We did this because the alternative was a major fight which would result in us having to use physical force against her and result in injury to her, us, and innocent bystanders.
The harm? Can't think of any as I have and continue to have a very good repoire with this inmate. And yes, she knows exactly what I did. She also respects and she knows exactly why I did what I did and she didn't have a problem with it because it saved her getting additional charges. 
I also find it rather ironic that you imply that there are a lot of innocent folks out there admitting to crimes because they think the police will lie on the stand. I have honestly never heard a single inmate say that is why they are in jail. Not a single one. I have heard them blame other citizens for lying. I have heard them admit to their errors but not think they should be in jail because of it. I have heard them say someone else did it. I have heard them complain that the officers did a lousy job investigating and "got the wrong person". But I have never heard them say that they are innocent but plead guilty because they knew the cops would lie about them. I can't say it doesn't happen, but it's certainly not common by any sense of the term - at least not where I live.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Did you ever notice there are no recipes for leftover chocolate?
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RE: A deep question I haven’t found the answer to. - 3/10/2010 2:05:25 PM
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bootsNspurs
Posts: 1280
Joined: 1/24/2007
From: Wisconsin, but currently in the desert!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sen10tious
The post from BamaJAF illustrates this. Using Satan's tactics, he found a shovel in the trunk of a car. Of course he did; this is exactly how cops get lured in. One big case and they are off and rationalizing.
And I'd like to see you look in the eyes of the sobbing mother and father of the next little girl that this guy would have found and killed. I'd like to see you explain why you didn't find it necessary to do what you could to find that shovel and other things that would have enabled you to put him away longer. Why you didn't do what you could that would have saved their young daughter's life.
_____________________________
<~~ My adorable lil cousins
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
-Edmund Burke
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RE: A deep question I haven’t found the answer to. - 3/10/2010 2:16:12 PM
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Crushmaster
Posts: 761
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quote:
bootsNspurs
And I'd like to see you look in the eyes of the sobbing mother and father of the next little girl that this guy would have found and killed. I'd like to see you explain why you didn't find it necessary to do what you could to find that shovel and other things that would have enabled you to put him away longer. Why you didn't do what you could that would have saved their young daughter's life.
That would be better than looking into the eyes of the one who saved my soul from eternal damnation, having no explanation as to why I told a falsehood and spit in His face.
Lying is never, never right. Stealing is never right. Murder is never right. Rape is never right. God does not believe in situational ethics. You might, but He doesn't, and that's what matters.
Let's say I was the man in this situation. Is my God not mighty enough to honor me, and protect the girl's life? Is the girl's life or health in this pervert's hands? Or is it in God's? Is it in my hands? Are we more mighty than God? Are we wiser than God?
I think not. If you do, you are a fool. Lying, like every sin, is an abomination to God.
(Proverbs 6:16-19) - "These six things the LORD hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him: {17} A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood, {18} A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil, {19} A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren."
That which is sin can never be right.
In Christ,
Crushmaster.
_____________________________
http://www.areyouagoodperson.org
(2 Corinthians 5:17) - "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Christ is Lord and King! To Him I give all glory and honor.
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RE: A deep question I haven’t found the answer to. - 3/10/2010 2:17:49 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 7497
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Still waiting for someone to respond to the verses about Rahab....
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Did you ever notice there are no recipes for leftover chocolate?
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RE: A deep question I haven’t found the answer to. - 3/10/2010 2:24:35 PM
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bootsNspurs
Posts: 1280
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I refer back to Phosy's post:
quote:
I would like you to explain the following Scriptures to me:
Rahab in Joshua 2 told bald-faced lies to the "bad guys" to protect Israel's spies. Lies - deceit - complete fabrications.
Hebrews 11:31 and James 2:25 say this act of deceit was by faith and credited to her as righteousness.
Is the Bible wrong? Please explain.
_____________________________
<~~ My adorable lil cousins
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
-Edmund Burke
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RE: A deep question I haven’t found the answer to. - 3/10/2010 3:32:11 PM
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Crushmaster
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quote:
phosadaud
Still waiting for someone to respond to the verses about Rahab....
(Hebrews 11:31) - "By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace."
(James 2:25) - "Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?"
What here tells you that God condones lying? As I said, look up "lying, lie, liar, liars, etc." in Scripture. They are not viewed favorably.
God said that He hates a lying tongue. I can bring up much more.
You are arguing against God, not I. You will not win that argument.
In Christ,
Crushmaster.
_____________________________
http://www.areyouagoodperson.org
(2 Corinthians 5:17) - "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Christ is Lord and King! To Him I give all glory and honor.
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RE: A deep question I haven’t found the answer to. - 3/10/2010 5:42:55 PM
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Warbird777
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Jason I would want you or a clone just like you on every police force in the land. Who better to administer justice than one who looks up to God for guidance.........you will be out among the folks who need this message the most.....Jesus came to the lost.......go out there and proclaim the truth of the gospel and watch God transform some lives............
WB777
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RE: A deep question I haven’t found the answer to. - 3/10/2010 9:04:19 PM
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sen10tious
Posts: 208
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southern US
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
I would like you to explain the following Scriptures to me:
Rahab in Joshua 2 told bald-faced lies to the "bad guys" to protect Israel's spies. Lies - deceit - complete fabrications.
Hebrews 11:31 and James 2:25 say this act of deceit was by faith and credited to her as righteousness.
Is the Bible wrong? Please explain.
Then let's look at Hebrews Chapter 11
7 By faith Noah went out and got crazy naked drunk
11 By faith Abraham went and did his wife's handmaid for the greater good
20 By faith Isaac deceived Abimelech about his wife for the greater good
21 By faith Jacob pretended to be Esau to steal the blessing
22 By faith Joseph planted a goblet in the saddlebag and then accused Benjamin of stealing it
23 By faith Moses murdered an Egyptian
31 By faith the prostitute Rahab lied for the greater good
OK, so drunkenness, fornication, deceit, deception, setting someone up, murder and lying are acts of faith, especially when done for the greater good?
No. That is not the way it goes. God could still have accomplished His plan without the sin.
Verse 31 really says: By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies was not killed with those who were disobedient.
And the James 2:25 verse:
Rahab the prostitute was considered righteous for giving lodging to the spies and sending them off in a different direction
It counted because of the way she treated God's people. If she had asked God to provide for an alternative to lying, we would have had a different story.
quote:
The harm? Can't think of any
Yes, that was my point. You will not know.
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RE: A deep question I haven’t found the answer to. - 3/11/2010 4:28:12 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 7497
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I apologize this is a driveby post because I was held over at work and being as I'm sick anyway, I'm ready to crash into bed...
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Hmmmm. What translation are you using because that's sure not what my Bible says.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sen10tious
quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
I would like you to explain the following Scriptures to me:
Rahab in Joshua 2 told bald-faced lies to the "bad guys" to protect Israel's spies. Lies - deceit - complete fabrications.
Hebrews 11:31 and James 2:25 say this act of deceit was by faith and credited to her as righteousness.
Is the Bible wrong? Please explain.
Then let's look at Hebrews Chapter 11
7 By faith Noah went out and got crazy naked drunk
11 By faith Abraham went and did his wife's handmaid for the greater good
20 By faith Isaac deceived Abimelech about his wife for the greater good
21 By faith Jacob pretended to be Esau to steal the blessing
22 By faith Joseph planted a goblet in the saddlebag and then accused Benjamin of stealing it
23 By faith Moses murdered an Egyptian
31 By faith the prostitute Rahab lied for the greater good
7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family.
11 By faith Abraham, even though he was past age--and Sarah herself was barren--was enabled to become a father because he considered him faithful who had made the promise.
20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.
21 By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph's sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.
22 By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions about his bones.
23 By faith Moses' parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king's edict. 24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter. 25 He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time. 26 He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king's anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel. 29 By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.
31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.
quote:
OK, so drunkenness, fornication, deceit, deception, setting someone up, murder and lying are acts of faith, especially when done for the greater good?
Again, I think we are reading different Bibles. Those verses do not discuss those (wo)men's sins. They discuss the things those (wo)men did that God credited to them as righteousness - Noah obeyed God and built the ark, Moses put God ahead of Egyptian riches, etc.
quote:
No. That is not the way it goes. God could still have accomplished His plan without the sin.
Yep. So, the question is: Is lying to evil-doers to protect human life a sin?
quote:
Verse 31 really says: By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies was not killed with those who were disobedient.
Read Joshua 2 to see how she did this:
1 Then Joshua son of Nun secretly sent two spies from ****tim. "Go, look over the land," he said, "especially Jericho." So they went and entered the house of a prostitute named Rahab and stayed there. 2 The king of Jericho was told, "Look! Some of the Israelites have come here tonight to spy out the land." 3 So the king of Jericho sent this message to Rahab: "Bring out the men who came to you and entered your house, because they have come to spy out the whole land." 4 But the woman had taken the two men and hidden them. She said, "Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they had come from. 5 At dusk, when it was time to close the city gate, the men left. I don't know which way they went. Go after them quickly. You may catch up with them." 6 (But she had taken them up to the roof and hidden them under the stalks of flax she had laid out on the roof.) 7 So the men set out in pursuit of the spies on the road that leads to the fords of the Jordan, and as soon as the pursuers had gone out, the gate was shut.
That was a bald-faced lie and that is how she protected them. By lying! Apparently, in this instance, God does not view dishonesty as a sin. See below what you just bolded. This is describing her LIE!
quote:
And the James 2:25 verse:
Rahab the prostitute was considered righteous for giving lodging to the spies and sending them off in a different direction
quote:
It counted because of the way she treated God's people. If she had asked God to provide for an alternative to lying, we would have had a different story.
Really? Where do you read this? I read that was she actually DID made her righteous.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Did you ever notice there are no recipes for leftover chocolate?
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RE: A deep question I haven’t found the answer to. - 3/11/2010 11:43:49 PM
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sen10tious
Posts: 208
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southern US
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James 2:25
New American Standard: In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
Them refers to the messengers. Rahab sent the messengers out in another direction.
Amplified: So also with Rahab the harlot--was she not shown to be justified (pronounced righteous before God) by [good] deeds when she took in the scouts (spies) and sent them away by a different route?
Them refers to the scouts. Rahab sent the scouts away by a different route.
King James: Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Them refers to the messengers. Rahab sent the messengers out another way.
New International Version: In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?
Them refers to the spies. Rahab sent the spies off in a different direction.
The king of Jericho's men had gone off on the road that leads to the fords of Jordan. This could not be a "different direction" because the Israelite scouts were still up on the roof under the stalks of flax. One must first establish "a" direction before having a "different" direction. After the king's patrol headed out on the road to the fords, Rahab sent the Israelite scouts in a different direction towards the hills.
James 2:25 says that Rahab was justified because she welcomed the Israelite scouts into her home and helped the Israelite scouts escape by a different road.
James 2:25 does not say that she was justified because she lied to the cops that the king of Jericho sent to her house looking for the Israelite scouts.
Frankly, I am a little amused by your argument that it was OK for Rahab to lie to the cops. Fortunately, the Bible does not say that. God is mighty enough to protect His scouts. Rahab did not have to lie. The king's men knew the Israelite scouts had entered her house. She could have truthfully stated that the men were no longer inside her house and left it at that.
quote:
So, the question is: Is lying to evil-doers to protect human life a sin?
One of several problems with this question is that Rahab's lies were going to affect far more people in the future than the two guys who were on her roof at the moment. She already knew that the LORD had given Jericho and the surrounding land to the Israelites. A cynic could easily argue that she would tell anyone anything just to' spare the lives of her father and mother, her brothers and sisters, and all who belong to them.' (see Joshua 2:13) She knew that she was selling out the human lives of entire population of Jericho to save her own family, and she didn't seem all that fussed about saving the human lives of her customers, neighbors, or overseers.
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RE: A deep question I haven’t found the answer to. - 3/12/2010 7:34:41 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 4125
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Crushmasterquote:
phosadaud
Still waiting for someone to respond to the verses about Rahab....
(Hebrews 11:31) - "By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace."
(James 2:25) - "Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?"
What here tells you that God condones lying? As I said, look up "lying, lie, liar, liars, etc." in Scripture. They are not viewed favorably.
God said that He hates a lying tongue. I can bring up much more. So you are saying that Rahab told the king's soldiers the truth when she said that the Hebrew spies were not there?
Jos 2:3 And the king of Jericho sent word to Rahab, saying, "Bring out the men who have come to you, who have entered your house, for they have come to search out all the land."
Jos 2:4 But the woman had taken the two men and hidden them, and she said, "Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they were from.
Jos 2:5 "It came about when it was time to shut the gate at dark, that the men went out; I do not know where the men went. Pursue them quickly, for you will overtake them."
Jos 2:6 But she had brought them up to the roof and hidden them in the stalks of flax which she had laid in order on the roof.
Was "I did not know where they were from" the truth or a lie?
Was "when it was time to shut the gate at dark, that the men went out" the truth or a lie?
Was "Pursue them quickly, for you will overtake them" the truth or a lie?
_____________________________
Avatar is my son Caleb and Leah on their wedding 12/20/09
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Winner of 2010 "best in "He Says"
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Our CD is available here:
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RE: A deep question I haven’t found the answer to. - 3/12/2010 7:41:53 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 4125
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May I suggest that God does indeed hate lying. But, as He is a person and not an impersonal or unyeilding rule book, can be flexible in certain circumstances.
That concept scares a lot of people because it means we cannot make a one-size-fits-all answer for every problem. It also means we must relate personally to HIM and Hear His voice for ourselves. Today. And IMO that is more scarey to some people than sinning.
_____________________________
Avatar is my son Caleb and Leah on their wedding 12/20/09
=======================
Winner of 2010 "best in "He Says"
=======================
Our CD is available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: A deep question I haven’t found the answer to. - 3/12/2010 8:51:14 AM
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sen10tious
Posts: 208
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southern US
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: Crushmaster (Hebrews 11:31) - "By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace."
(James 2:25) - "Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?"
What here tells you that God condones lying? As I said, look up "lying, lie, liar, liars, etc." in Scripture. They are not viewed favorably.
God said that He hates a lying tongue. I can bring up much more. So you are saying that Rahab told the king's soldiers the truth when she said that the Hebrew spies were not there?
I cannot speak for Crushmaster, but I do not see any place in that post where he said that Rahab told the king's men the truth. He said only that neither Hebrews 11:31 nor James 2:25 condones lying. These verses do not address the lying at all. They commend Rahab for protecting the spies, not for the method she used.
Paul talks about the methods we choose to use in Romans 3:7. Loosely paraphrased, he says, If my lie increases God's glory, then how come He judges me to be a sinner?
Here it is in the NAS:
But if through my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner?
In the next verse, 8, Pauls calls the very idea of "Let us do evil that good may come" a slanderous assault against his character.
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RE: A deep question I haven’t found the answer to. - 3/12/2010 12:37:28 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4125
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sen10tious
He said only that neither Hebrews 11:31 nor James 2:25 condones lying. These verses do not address the lying at all. They commend Rahab for protecting the spies, not for the method she used. Which means you are thinking like a 21st century western person and not a first century Jew (the writers of said books) who would not have seperated the two.
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RE: A deep question I haven’t found the answer to. - 3/12/2010 2:14:08 PM
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Crushmaster
Posts: 761
Joined: 7/21/2009
From: The South, In The Good Ol' U.S. of A.
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quote:
DaveW
So you are saying that Rahab told the king's soldiers the truth when she said that the Hebrew spies were not there?
Jos 2:3 And the king of Jericho sent word to Rahab, saying, "Bring out the men who have come to you, who have entered your house, for they have come to search out all the land."
Jos 2:4 But the woman had taken the two men and hidden them, and she said, "Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they were from.
Jos 2:5 "It came about when it was time to shut the gate at dark, that the men went out; I do not know where the men went. Pursue them quickly, for you will overtake them."
Jos 2:6 But she had brought them up to the roof and hidden them in the stalks of flax which she had laid in order on the roof.
Was "I did not know where they were from" the truth or a lie?
Was "when it was time to shut the gate at dark, that the men went out" the truth or a lie?
Was "Pursue them quickly, for you will overtake them" the truth or a lie?
I'm saying, sir, that the reason Rahab was praised for her faith has nothing to do with lying. Lying is not mentioned in either James or Hebrews.
She was praised because she received the men with kindness and sent them out another way. It is blatantly obvious.
quote:
DaveW
May I suggest that God does indeed hate lying. But, as He is a person and not an impersonal or unyeilding rule book, can be flexible in certain circumstances.
That concept scares a lot of people because it means we cannot make a one-size-fits-all answer for every problem. It also means we must relate personally to HIM and Hear His voice for ourselves. Today. And IMO that is more scarey to some people than sinning.
Sir, that concept scares me because it is un-Biblical. Sin is sin. God does not compromise.
quote:
phosodaud
I know what "them" refers to but you are separating what she did. She sent them out what other way? The opposite direction as those who she lied to and got them to go a different way. It's still a lie no matter how you dance around it. And God still says what she DID was credited to her. The Bible does not condemn her act - it lauds her!
You're making stuff up here, ma'am. The texts praise her for being kind to them, or, receiving the spies, and sending them out another way! Lying is not mentioned. Nor are the faults of the other people in the hall of fame. Think of Samson, Gideon, Sarah. Perfect people? No. Sarah laughed at God. Look at Samson and Gideon. Etc. Their faith was being praised, not the times they messed up. You won't find the bad mentioned, as far as I know, in Hebrews 11. Just the good.
This is the truth of God's Word, ma'am. God hates lying in each and every circumstance. You may choose to heed to this truth, or you may argue against and not believe it.
It is your choice, but I profess to you that is it unwise to call darkness light.
In Christ,
Crushmaster.
_____________________________
http://www.areyouagoodperson.org
(2 Corinthians 5:17) - "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Christ is Lord and King! To Him I give all glory and honor.
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RE: A deep question I haven’t found the answer to. - 3/12/2010 3:20:38 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 7497
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Crushmaster
quote:
phosodaud
I know what "them" refers to but you are separating what she did. She sent them out what other way? The opposite direction as those who she lied to and got them to go a different way. It's still a lie no matter how you dance around it. And God still says what she DID was credited to her. The Bible does not condemn her act - it lauds her!
You're making stuff up here, ma'am. The texts praise her for being kind to them, or, receiving the spies, and sending them out another way! Lying is not mentioned. Nor are the faults of the other people in the hall of fame. Think of Samson, Gideon, Sarah. Perfect people? No. Sarah laughed at God. Look at Samson and Gideon. Etc. Their faith was being praised, not the times they messed up. You won't find the bad mentioned, as far as I know, in Hebrews 11. Just the good.
This is the truth of God's Word, ma'am. God hates lying in each and every circumstance. You may choose to heed to this truth, or you may argue against and not believe it.
It is your choice, but I profess to you that is it unwise to call darkness light.
In Christ,
Crushmaster.
I'm making stuff up?  It's right out of God's Word! The verses in James and Hebrews are describing what Rahab did in Joshua 2. Read it! Actually, read Joshua 6 as well for that matter. Verses in Scripture were not intended to stand alone - they are part of a whole and to understand the whole, it is vital that we understand context and history.
As far as "other sins" for other folks - they are not mentioned because the sins of the others have NOTHING to do with what they are praised for in Hebrews. That's like saying "Congratulations on your retirement" and trying to say that also means you are congratulating someone on getting pregnant out of wedlock. Totally unrelated. However, with Rahab - Hebrews and James are discussing what she did for the spies. And here's a shocker for you: To protect them, she LIED for them. The two things are inexorably connected. It's absurd to say that God praised her for doing what she did, but not really because what she did was a sin.
As far as why lying isn't mentioned --> Strawman. Lying is an integral part of the story but Hebrews and James isn't telling us the story - just the synopsis.
God's Word is God's Word. Even when it doesn't fit into a nice, neat little package.
_____________________________
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Did you ever notice there are no recipes for leftover chocolate?
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RE: A deep question I haven’t found the answer to. - 3/12/2010 5:52:42 PM
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Crushmaster
Posts: 761
Joined: 7/21/2009
From: The South, In The Good Ol' U.S. of A.
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
quote:
ORIGINAL: Crushmaster
quote:
phosodaud
I know what "them" refers to but you are separating what she did. She sent them out what other way? The opposite direction as those who she lied to and got them to go a different way. It's still a lie no matter how you dance around it. And God still says what she DID was credited to her. The Bible does not condemn her act - it lauds her!
You're making stuff up here, ma'am. The texts praise her for being kind to them, or, receiving the spies, and sending them out another way! Lying is not mentioned. Nor are the faults of the other people in the hall of fame. Think of Samson, Gideon, Sarah. Perfect people? No. Sarah laughed at God. Look at Samson and Gideon. Etc. Their faith was being praised, not the times they messed up. You won't find the bad mentioned, as far as I know, in Hebrews 11. Just the good.
This is the truth of God's Word, ma'am. God hates lying in each and every circumstance. You may choose to heed to this truth, or you may argue against and not believe it.
It is your choice, but I profess to you that is it unwise to call darkness light.
In Christ,
Crushmaster.
I'm making stuff up? It's right out of God's Word! The verses in James and Hebrews are describing what Rahab did in Joshua 2. Read it! Actually, read Joshua 6 as well for that matter. Verses in Scripture were not intended to stand alone - they are part of a whole and to understand the whole, it is vital that we understand context and history.
As far as "other sins" for other folks - they are not mentioned because the sins of the others have NOTHING to do with what they are praised for in Hebrews. That's like saying "Congratulations on your retirement" and trying to say that also means you are congratulating someone on getting pregnant out of wedlock. Totally unrelated. However, with Rahab - Hebrews and James are discussing what she did for the spies. And here's a shocker for you: To protect them, she LIED for them. The two things are inexorably connected. It's absurd to say that God praised her for doing what she did, but not really because what she did was a sin.
As far as why lying isn't mentioned --> Strawman. Lying is an integral part of the story but Hebrews and James isn't telling us the story - just the synopsis.
God's Word is God's Word. Even when it doesn't fit into a nice, neat little package.
Ma'am, you are committing eisogesis. It's not right out of God's Word. You might think it is, but it's not. God cannot both hate lying and commend someone when they do it. It doesn't work.
I have nothing more to say to you. The truth has been put forth, and I can do no more than that.
(Proverbs 12:22 KJV) Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight.
(Proverbs 19:5 KJV) A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall not escape.
(Mark 7:21-23 KJV) For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, {22} Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: {23} All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
(Isaiah 5:20 KJV) Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
In Christ,
Crushmaster.
_____________________________
http://www.areyouagoodperson.org
(2 Corinthians 5:17) - "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Christ is Lord and King! To Him I give all glory and honor.
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RE: A deep question I haven’t found the answer to. - 3/13/2010 2:08:22 PM
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bootsNspurs
Posts: 1280
Joined: 1/24/2007
From: Wisconsin, but currently in the desert!
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If what Rahab did was a sin by lying, then even tho "Thou shall not kill" is in the 10 commandments, why does God many many times in the Bible commend people for killing... in fact completely slaughtering a population that's not of Him? Elijah was considered righteous for having the prophets of Baal slaughtered on Mt Carmel. That's just one example. Wouldn't he have had to repent for that, according to what y'all are saying? Wouldn't that have been wrong?
And I assume you are also going to tell me that an officer shooting and killing someone who is about to kill another person... maybe that person is about to kill your daughter... is also wrong?
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All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
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RE: A deep question I haven’t found the answer to. - 3/13/2010 2:33:38 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 891
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
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I've asked myself the same questions. Our government leaders basically have to lie to protect national security. God knows what some who protect our country have done or must do.
Did Jesus expect His followers to overthrow the government and do away with government?
For Amish, the answer seems to be black and white: don't hurt your enemies. What about the school shooting in Pennsylvania? The teacher, Emma Mae Zook and her mother managed to reach a farm, where they asked Amos Smoker to call 911. If you shouldn't hurt your enemies, why do you ask the police to protect you?
What about Corrie Ten Boom? Didn't one of her relatives lie to the SS to protect Jews? Was that wrong? I'm not sure of the answers.
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RE: A deep question I haven’t found the answer to. - 3/13/2010 3:33:29 PM
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lightbeamrider
Posts: 323
Joined: 6/6/2008
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I cannot think of a single circumstance where i had to lie to protect life. Most of my lies were self serving. There was also the Hebrew midwives in Exodus 1. Shiphrah and Puah. (is that Egyptian names?) who lied to the king of Egypt because they feared God more than the King who had absolute political and religious power and was probably the most powerful man in the world at that time. These midwives feared God more than they did the King. The midwives are commended for refusing to kill and for fearing God more than the King but probably not for lying. God was good to the midwives. Was good to David in spite of his Adultery, murder and the whole sinful census event in which God gives David a choice of three possible outcomes. 70,000 are killed but things worked out.
If you want to convict the Devil you got to go to hell to get witnesses. Dave W. in post 40 makes the most sense to me.
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RE: A deep question I haven’t found the answer to. - 3/13/2010 3:47:02 PM
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Crushmaster
Posts: 761
Joined: 7/21/2009
From: The South, In The Good Ol' U.S. of A.
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bootsNspurs
If what Rahab did was a sin by lying, then even tho "Thou shall not kill" is in the 10 commandments, why does God many many times in the Bible commend people for killing... in fact completely slaughtering a population that's not of Him? Elijah was considered righteous for having the prophets of Baal slaughtered on Mt Carmel. That's just one example. Wouldn't he have had to repent for that, according to what y'all are saying? Wouldn't that have been wrong?
And I assume you are also going to tell me that an officer shooting and killing someone who is about to kill another person... maybe that person is about to kill your daughter... is also wrong?
Thou shalt not kill=thou shalt not murder. Look at the Hebrew.
In Christ,
Crushmaster.
_____________________________
http://www.areyouagoodperson.org
(2 Corinthians 5:17) - "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Christ is Lord and King! To Him I give all glory and honor.
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