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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/28/2008 12:29:22 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2189
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
So if someone posts here concerning a problem, its considered complaining?
My apologies, I didn't mean for it to come across like that.
I only meant that continuing to talk about it rather than take action is a venture that continues to spawn resentment.
You do understand that your church is is allowing the enemy to come in. God is no longer the focus. Discontent, chaos and disruption are occurring, through prayer and discussion, your church can chase the enemy right out, allowing God to bring about restoration to your congregation.
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"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/28/2008 12:55:58 PM
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missourinative
Posts: 23
Joined: 8/26/2008
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Thank you, I appreciate that response, and will take it to heart.
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/28/2008 1:02:00 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2863
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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Having read all the responses here, I'll go ahead and add my 0.02 cents (just 0.02 cents - not sure this is worth the full 2 cents.)
Overall, I think Crankius and RC have offered some very good counsel in here. Like RC & others, I definitely would avoid the petition idea. Biblically, it's probably not altogether sound. More than that, though, it just has an icky feel to it. (How's that for doctrine!) I tend to think those kinds of strategies just don't end well.
RC, Cranky, SonInMe et al have recommended following Matthew 18. I would too. There's a reason that it's in the bible - namely that it works about as good as anything else we might come up with. It's private. It's sensitive to the fact that we might not know all the reasons that people make the decisions they do. It respects authority. I doesn't unnecessarily challenge egos & generate unnecessary conflict.
I can't remember who else said some of these things, but here are the one's I thought were on target:
1) This is not a foundational issue. People don't die or go to hell because of bad music. By all means, deal with the issue, but be sensitive to the fact that at some point we have to quit fighting about it, deal with it, or move on.
2) A choir isn't institutionally ordained by God. We don't necessarily have to have one. The church will not die if there is no choir for a season. Sometimes, letting something die a merciful death is the best we can do. Hopefully it can be resurrected later. This is a valid option, and one that my former church pursued with some success. My former church had a different unhealthy dynamic going on, but then solution ended up being the same - a temporary hiatus.
3) Like RC, I don't like church governance systems where the pastor is in charge. I think there's a reason Paul wrote extensively about elders. Neither here nor there, but something to think about.
4) Sin begets sin. The MD's attitude is (or is at risk of) leading others into poor behavior. It really should be dealt with. (Back to Matthew 18 again, aren't we?)
5) Churches don't die of bad music. They do die due to bad behavior. See #4 above. (Matthew 18 again?)
6) If you've tried coming alongside the MD to "plug the holes" in his skill set, if you've tried to confront him personally and then again with an elder, if you've tried to do the same process with the pastor, then you may be running short of options. It may be the best you can do is to step away for a time. Christ wrote that if your eye causes you to sin, well pluck it out. It's painful (and gross!) but there is a strong analogy here. Leaving the choir for a time isn't necessarily the best option for everyone, but it's better than preserving a conflict.
7) I understand that after 24 years in one place, it may be hard to find a new community with which to worship. I get that, and wouldn't necessarily recommend it. It's a legitimate option, but a "nuclear option" that I would hold in my backpocket until I just couldn't deal with it any more. God comes to redeem us - personally and collectively. Sometimes we have to be his legs, feet, and hands. Letting this continue isn't redemptive. I think you're instincts toward action here are appropriate.
Best wishes to you as you wade through all the muck of being salt and light.
< Message edited by GroupW -- 8/28/2008 2:18:30 PM >
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/28/2008 1:05:59 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2863
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: missourinative
I guess when you see things from that perspective, we would have to say that it is not a sin to have sex in public with your spouse.
Phew. I was worried about that one. 
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/28/2008 5:21:39 PM
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mch3172
Posts: 10
Joined: 5/27/2008
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What really struck me as an area of concern beyond the issue of incompetent music leadership was (if I'm reading the posts correctly) that this is a church of 2500 on a Sunday morning without officers other than the pastor to shepherd the flock. That means potentially 2500 souls without qualified, ordained deacons or elders to provide sympathy, material or spiritual support, and doctrinal guidance and teaching. One pastor can't do that for 2500 people, especially if his priorities of outreach (a good priority) keep him from wanting to deal with problems within the church. Regardless of the music situation, this would be reason enough for me to leave.
I do believe that missourinative's concerns do deal with a significant matter, not "just music": Psalm 33:3 says "Sing unto Him a new song; play skillfully with a shout of joy." I think many of us evangelical Protestants forget about that passage when talking about a "joyful noise." Perhaps skittishness about aesthetic beauty in worship is part of the historical baggage we carry from the Reformation.
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This thread is missing quite a few posts now. It looks like I was speaking with my imaginary friend named Bible... 
