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When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/26/2008 3:22:22 PM
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missourinative
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Our church is facing a crisis of sorts. We have a music director who is poorly trained, and is slowing but surely tearing down the music department. The harmonies are embarassingly bad at times; the services are broadcast over the internet, too.
We have lost about 25 choir members in the past year; our musicians are unhappy too. No one is allowed to speak freely about the problems - you are just shut down.
Several of us have tried going to our Pastor, the response is always the same "he is my employee, I don't want to hear about any problems....."
Now what?
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/26/2008 3:31:45 PM
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TorchHeart
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Well, I'm going to suggest this without knowing really how your church is set up for dealing with situations like this, but have you thought about getting a petition together? Maybe something like that would show the pastor that this isn't just a couple of people who aren't happy with his choice for a music director, but a large part of the congregation.
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/26/2008 3:33:58 PM
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missourinative
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How would I go about such a thing in a respectful, Biblical way?
I don't want to have to repent for anything........
Would I need to let the Pastor know ahead of time what I am doing? Otherwise, isn't it a "going behind his back" kind of thing?
This is making us very unhappy.
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/26/2008 3:58:24 PM
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KnowJesus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: missourinative
Our church is facing a crisis of sorts. We have a music director who is poorly trained, and is slowing but surely tearing down the music department. The harmonies are embarassingly bad at times; the services are broadcast over the internet, too.
You mentioned that your director is poorly trained. Is it possible for the church to encourange or insist for the glory of God that he/she get some training. Most churches supply training for SS leaders, Evangelism, and those going on missions, so why not the music director? All of us have not arrived in our callings. I look forward to training sessions...and seminars. Who would not be open to learning more, when it comes to working in any ministry of the church?
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/26/2008 4:02:25 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
Our church is facing a crisis of sorts. We have a music director who is poorly trained, and is slowing but surely tearing down the music department. The harmonies are embarassingly bad at times; the services are broadcast over the internet, too.
We have lost about 25 choir members in the past year; our musicians are unhappy too. No one is allowed to speak freely about the problems - you are just shut down.
Several of us have tried going to our Pastor, the response is always the same "he is my employee, I don't want to hear about any problems....."
Now what?
God's ways are not our ways. We think leaders should be good and do good. God sometimes allows bad leadership to prove us, to find out what is in us, KWIM? Can you walk in the manner worthy of the calling wherewith you have been called as Ephesians 4 asks? It's not easy. We want to run screaming when things like this happen. I've watched and prayed as churches have been broken apart because of leadership problems. But I've also seen tremendous growth in godliness for those who learned to bear with others, to put self aside, to pray and not respond out of the flesh but walk ever so closely in step with the Spirit.
This can be a time of real blessing for you and others if you will pray and yield to God in this too. He's doing a work---it just doesn't fit with your (or my) agenda. Bless you.  LL
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/26/2008 4:07:37 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: missourinative
How would I go about such a thing in a respectful, Biblical way?
I don't want to have to repent for anything........
Would I need to let the Pastor know ahead of time what I am doing? Otherwise, isn't it a "going behind his back" kind of thing?
This is making us very unhappy.
How is the leadership structure of your Church set up?
Board of Deacons, Elders, Trustees, or what?
How does the Church go about selecting a Pastor?
There are proper ways to address a bad situation, just depends on the structure of the Church leadership.
Do not want to diss someone else's suggestion, but I woild nix the petition idea as not a good (or probably not even Scriptural) idea. That will only stir up gossip, backbiting, inuendo, and more problems that you percieve that you have now.
Thsnks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/26/2008 4:11:43 PM
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missourinative
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KnowJesus, several of us have gently suggested that he get some additional training - he always has a reason why he doesn't have time, and the Pastor doesn't have enough musical training himself to recognize the problem, and won't insist.
LiveLoved, I guess I am not seeing the Biblical reasoning behind your post. If there are scriptures that are applicable here, I am anxious to see them.
I don't understand how ignoring the situation will help. Is there a Bible basis for that line of thought?
Not arguing, just asking for some serious input.
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/26/2008 4:14:14 PM
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missourinative
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rc, the leadership structure is that we have a board, but the pastor is the ultimate authority, and cannot be ousted by them (wouldn't want that anyway).
The board basically oversees the financial structure of our church; pastor makes all the other decisions.
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/26/2008 4:16:39 PM
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missourinative
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I have counseled with some friends and another pastor. They all suggested the same thing - that we simply go somewhere else to church.
That is hard after 24 years in the same place.
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/26/2008 4:17:08 PM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1951
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Do not want to diss someone else's suggestion, but I woild nix the petition idea as not a good (or probably not even Scriptural) idea. That will only stir up gossip, backbiting, inuendo, and more problems that you percieve that you have now.
Hey, RC. I'm just wondering how the "petition idea" wouldn't be scriptural in your view.
(NOTE: I'm not saying that I disagree with you that it is not a good idea; I just suggested it, but as I recall, you're actually a minister/pastor of sorts, so you'd probably have a better idea of how things like this work in a church. I'm just looking for a little personal education, here, if you don't mind.)
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/26/2008 4:37:40 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
LiveLoved, I guess I am not seeing the Biblical reasoning behind your post. If there are scriptures that are applicable here, I am anxious to see them.
Perhaps I'm older than you. Or perhaps I've just lived through more church experiences than you. I don't know. But I do know that where you have people, and especially where you have church people, you have sin. And God uses the body life to polish the sharp edges off of us as living stones. The church is the place where our flesh is most often crucified---if we listen to the Lord and yield to Him. So He allows all kinds of things to take place in the church to see how we will respond. I have watched and prayed as pastor after pastor after pastor has responded in sinful, ungodly ways to various happenings in the church.
And it ultimately comes down to me, how do I walk, how do I respond in the midst of this? He wants me to realize that He has allowed this. And He wants me to walk in a manner worthy, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing forbearance to one another in love, being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace (Eph 4:2-3).
That's what I'm saying. That is the way He has lead me. I have yet to walk through a church situation that 'worked out' the way I would have chosen. God's ways are not ours.
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/26/2008 4:41:00 PM
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bluestone
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quote:
ORIGINAL: missourinative
rc, the leadership structure is that we have a board, but the pastor is the ultimate authority, and cannot be ousted by them (wouldn't want that anyway).
The board basically oversees the financial structure of our church; pastor makes all the other decisions.
This is the problem. Dictorial leadership. I would leave the church.
_____________________________
I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/26/2008 4:46:20 PM
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deliveredarling
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If there are that many people having a problem with this particular leader, how can the preacher not here the complaints? Does he not see what is happening to the choir?
Have all the people who have a problem with it, confronted both the leader and the preacher?
Sounds like an opportunity to practice the Matthew 18 principal.
Should that not go well, it may be time to prayerfully seek another church.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/26/2008 5:01:25 PM
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mvic
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I think I've understood the leadership structure in your church. However, I'm not clear how big a church it is. 100 people, 200, more?
I agree with RCJames, don't start something behind the pastor's back, or the music director's back.
Now then; if the choir lost 25 members, how many more can there be before it ceases to be a choir? How long will it be before the musicians leave too?
You say "several of us" tried to speak to the pastor. How many of these are there in relation to the overall church attendance? 10%, 20%, more?
You see where I'm coming from? It could possibly be that God is letting this happen in order to allow change to occur in your church in a gradual basis. Perhaps over time the choir/musicians (or what's left of them) may suggest improvements to the director of music. They may even approach the pastor direct.
So by waiting for a while matters may soon change anyway. So I suggest, you and the others like-minded get together and pray. Pray for the pastor and music director. Put the situation in God's hands and wait for Him to change matters, if change is needed. Don't rush Him. Let Him take His time.
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/26/2008 5:06:48 PM
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missourinative
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LiveLoved, I see that you would take the totally passive approach. That may be best for you.
But if everyone worked that way, nothing would ever be done to correct any situation. We would all just sit by and wait for God to do something.
delivered, part of the problem is that the pastor refuses to sit down with anyone and discuss it. He is an evangelist at heart, and feels that this problem is small and petty, and we should be out winning the world instead of dealing with such issues.
Is that the difference between being an evangelist and a pastor? An evangelist wants to convert everyone, and a pastor does development and maintenance of established Christians?
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/26/2008 5:10:43 PM
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missourinative
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mvic, our church runs about 2500 on Sunday morning. By comparison, our choir is quite small (in my opinion anyway). There are only about 40 in it now, used to be double that.
We have excellent musicians; however they are very unhappy with the situation. Several have quit and come back more than once over the past year.
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/26/2008 5:28:34 PM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
part of the problem is that the pastor refuses to sit down with anyone and discuss it.
Maybe your pastor has a problem sheparding his flock. That's a bigger problem than the music.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/26/2008 6:06:22 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
LiveLoved, I see that you would take the totally passive approach. That may be best for you.
But if everyone worked that way, nothing would ever be done to correct any situation. We would all just sit by and wait for God to do something.
Nope, it is not the totally passive approach. My husband and I have faithfully prayed and befriended our pastors, walked along side them, and loved them AND after years of praying and the leading of the Spirit, spoken to them forthrightly, in gentleness and with tears.
But ALL three responded in a fleshly, carnal manner. Only one of them later repented and wrote us a letter of confession. I will cherish that letter forever because these are Red Sea parting miracles.
My counsel to you is for your response to be slow, prayerful and Spirit led. That is why I admonished you to look at Eph 4 and for you to walk in a manner worthy. When things of this nature are taking place in the church, flesh runs rampant and it is so tempting to respond to flesh with the flesh. And that is not God honoring.
So I am speaking from experience. God generally moves very slowly. We want to race ahead. So keep your eyes fixed on Jesus, on His ways, say no to the flesh, and pray. Bless ya!
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/26/2008 6:10:52 PM
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deliveredarling
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I think sometimes our waiting on the Lord is really a translation, "I'll sit and wait until someone else does what God has already told me to do. I don't want to do it because I might ruffle some feathers and become uncomfortable."
JMO
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/26/2008 6:52:43 PM
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crankius
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What specifically is the role of the Music Leader? Is he considered part of the ministry staff?
Biblically, there is a procedure for handling conflict--specifically if there is sin involved. So you have to ask yourself--is there a pattern of sin involved, or is he simply incompetent?
If there is a pattern of sin, then you need to follow Matthew 18:15-17:
1. Speak with him one-on-one (if you are female, you can have your husband with you). Address the sin and seek reconciliation. If he doesn't repent, go to step 2.
2. Speak with him with witnesses present--in your situation this might include a board member and some of the other music members (people specifically involved, so that you are not slandering him among people who have no business being involved). If he doesn't repent, go to step 3.
3. Request that this issue be brought before the church so that all the witnesses may come forward. If he repents, all is well! If he doesn't, then the church has to follow the scripture and remove him from the fellowship.
The church leadership must honor not only Matt 18, but also 1 Timothy 5:19-22. If his role is essentially that of a ministry leader, and there are at least two or three witnesses to his sin, then he should be rebuked before all (without partiality).
However, if his problem is simply incompetence, then those of you who care should carefully examine the church constitution and by-laws to see what the church process is for handling incompetent staff. The Biblical process should honored throughout the process, though.
_____________________________
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Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/26/2008 6:58:03 PM
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bluestone
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How did he get hired in the first place?
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I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/26/2008 7:29:55 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5767
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: missourinative
rc, the leadership structure is that we have a board, but the pastor is the ultimate authority, and cannot be ousted by them (wouldn't want that anyway).
The board basically oversees the financial structure of our church; pastor makes all the other decisions.
Then one person that has the Pastor's ear should approach him with all humility and speak to him about the brewing situation.
If the Pastor is not accountable to anyone, then the leadership of your Church is out of order to begin with, and it may be a real problem.
Pray and then pray some more.
Most Pastors who set up non-accountability situations have ego's the size of a 1959 Caddillac Sedan de Ville. But surely someone who is upset with the music situation will have the Pastor's ear.
Tread carefully with talking this up, dissing the Pastor or the music leader as it can easily become gossip and divisive; then you will be in error.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/26/2008 7:38:36 PM
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rcjames
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
Hey, RC. I'm just wondering how the "petition idea" wouldn't be scriptural in your view.
Over the years I have seen this tried a few times and the problems are thus; It is nearly impossible to go to everyone and complain about something and get as many people on board with ones perception of a problem without being divisive. It also can and most often does reach the level of gossip and backbiting.
Now being divisive, gossiping, and backbiting are all sins; and it is very easy to slip into that error.
Scripture instructs us that when we see someone in error that we go to them in all "Humility", not by trying to force an issue by numbers of folks we can talk into agreeing with us. And we are also instructed to be careful that we do not get intangled in sin while we are at it.
I have seen many times situations such as this turn into full blown Church splits with everyone getting hurt in the end.
One of my responsibilities in our Denomination is helping Churches to resolve problems, and I have seen it all. Being humble and not trying to force an issue always is the avenue to take in these situations.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/26/2008 7:44:49 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5767
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: missourinative
I have counseled with some friends and another pastor. They all suggested the same thing - that we simply go somewhere else to church.
That is hard after 24 years in the same place.
That is always an option. If you can't resolve the situation without causing division then you can do one of two things;
Quietly leave, and I say quietly because you do not want to be divisive.
Or; just get over it and join in to
(Psa 66:1) Make a joyful noise unto God, all ye lands:
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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there are always exceptions when sin is involved).