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Would you consider this backtalk? - 3/8/2010 5:09:59 PM
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LMKH
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My daughter started a garden last year. My husband went out and tried to fix some things. In the process, storms hit with tons of rain and some flooding. So, the garden basically washed away. My daughter is going to start working on the garden again soon this spring.
My dad comes over and is trying to get my daughter to go to her dad and tell her dad to leave her garden alone and try to force her dad in to promising to leave the garden alone. I told my dad that would be rude and disrespectful of her to do, but he does not want to let it drop. He called today and started again and I finally told him she would get in big trouble and be punished if she spoke to her dad like that. My dad is acting all confused. For the record, it is not unusual for my dad to be confused. Finally, my dad backs off and says he guesses this is my house and if I want to be that cruel, nothing he can do about it. I just left it at that.
Seriously, I think if a child went and made demands like that to her dad, that would be rude and disrespectful. My dad keeps insisting that she outright demand that her dad promise to not touch the garden. I think that to make a demand like that to your parent would be rude. I also think it is ungrateful considering all the work her dad tried to do on the garden only to have the storms wash it all away.
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RE: Would you consider this backtalk? - 3/8/2010 5:30:42 PM
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Sideways
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Oh, so much depends on how everything was handled.
Saying "Dad, I really appreciate everything you did for me before, but I'd like to do this on my own this time and have the satisfaction of a job well done all by myself." A decent father would honor a respectful request like that.
Obviously there are plenty of examples where the child might be a lot more whitchy about it.
Does your daughter want to do this all on her own? What does she think about all of this.
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RE: Would you consider this backtalk? - 3/8/2010 5:31:18 PM
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macokjc
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Sometimes bad things happen, and it is nobody's fault. I think that for your daughter to talk to her dad this way would be extremely disrespectful, and I think it is disrespectful of your father to talk to you this way. It could be that he is concerned for his granddaughter, and she expressed her frustrations to him; but it is not his place to meddle like that in your family.
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RE: Would you consider this backtalk? - 3/8/2010 6:01:03 PM
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3cappuccinosmom
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quote:
Sometimes bad things happen, and it is nobody's fault. I think that for your daughter to talk to her dad this way would be extremely disrespectful, and I think it is disrespectful of your father to talk to you this way.
Um, yeah.
I can't quite figure out why anyone thinks this is dad's fault in the first place. Rains and floods, if bad enough, can total a garden all by themselves.  And is this your father's idea, or does your daughter actually think her dad wrecked her garden? Either way, what your father was pushing for would be horribly disrespectful. But how you deal with the issue depends on what's actually going on. If it's just your father, you deal with him. He needs to back off. If your daughter thinks the washed out garden is her dad's fault, as a family you need to get together and talk about it, and probably explain to her about the fact that a really heavy rain can do a doozy on a garden without any help from humans.
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RE: Would you consider this backtalk? - 3/8/2010 6:10:18 PM
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Sideways
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Why are we blaming the daughter here? What has she actually said that was disrespectful? All we know from the OP is that the grandfather was getting over-involved.
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RE: Would you consider this backtalk? - 3/8/2010 6:23:49 PM
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SurpassingPeace
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The only thing I see from the daughter is she is going to start over again. I don't see a problem with anything she has done.
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RE: Would you consider this backtalk? - 3/8/2010 7:01:08 PM
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KaptZ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
Oh, so much depends on how everything was handled.
Saying "Dad, I really appreciate everything you did for me before, but I'd like to do this on my own this time and have the satisfaction of a job well done all by myself." A decent father would honor a respectful request like that.
Obviously there are plenty of examples where the child might be a lot more whitchy about it.
Does your daughter want to do this all on her own? What does she think about all of this.
I agree.
It's one thing for the daughter to tell her dad to stay the 'bleep' out of her garden. That's backtalk. If she just says she wants to do it all herself that's asking for independence. That's being polite and assertive. I think those are good traits.
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RE: Would you consider this backtalk? - 3/8/2010 7:03:28 PM
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SurpassingPeace
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Curious, did you husband do something, inadvertently, the led to the destruction of the garden? Is that what is going on?
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RE: Would you consider this backtalk? - 3/8/2010 7:56:47 PM
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kohls356
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
Why are we blaming the daughter here? What has she actually said that was disrespectful? All we know from the OP is that the grandfather was getting over-involved.
I may have read it wrong but I don't think anyone is blaming the daughter or has said she has been disprespectful but if she were to speak to her father the way her grandfather said she should then that would be disrespectful.
I think grandpa should stay out of it.
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RE: Would you consider this backtalk? - 3/8/2010 10:00:10 PM
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bolt.
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First: I think a child should be free to make respectful requests of her parents, and to be clear and perhaps firm in expressing how strongly he/she feels about things. Good families make space for those sorts of, "Permission to speak freely, sir?" conversations. Teens are learning to communicate. If there is no space for them to loose their composure and miss a fully respectful tone once in a while, there's not going to be a lot of openness.
(For example: Husbands and wives should be kind and respectful to each other at all times, but when we loose that some days, our spouse (hopefully) meets that with grace. Kids need that even more than spouses do.)
Second: I think the relationship between a grandparent and a child is between them, unless the child is very young, or if the grandparent is emotionally unhealthy. In this case the grandfather was giving bad advice...
Is the girl a teen? If she is than I think this was an excellent opportunity to ask her if she thought her gf's advice was good advice, and if his persistence made her uncomfortable. If she does not yet know how to respectably wrap up a conversation where she is uncomfortable, she needs to learn. If she can't tell good advice from bad advice, she needs to be taught that skill too. She needs to be taught to manage this relationship with grace and boundaries. It's an excellent teaching opportunity.
If she is younger, then, yeah, I get why you stepped in, but I would not have fought the battle based on content and consequences. I'd have said something more like, "You've said your piece, Dad. She's heard it. It's probably best if you talk about other things." Then (after the incident) I'd go ahead with some really guided analysis of things with her, and give her some good advice on how to get out of those kinds of sticky conversations.
Third: I think if older children or teens take bad advice and act on it, they are fully responsible for that choice. If the girl chooses disrespect, it should be met normally, not based on anything the gf had to do with it.
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RE: Would you consider this backtalk? - 3/9/2010 11:56:50 AM
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stampinlady
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quote:
First: I think a child should be free to make respectful requests of her parents, and to be clear and perhaps firm in expressing how strongly he/she feels about things. Good families make space for those sorts of, "Permission to speak freely, sir?" conversations. Teens are learning to communicate. If there is no space for them to loose their composure and miss a fully respectful tone once in a while, there's not going to be a lot of openness.
Very good advice. I never learned this as a kid and had and still have some struggles with my peers and those older than me. I think dh and I are doing a great job in this area of our parenting because of how we grew up.
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RE: Would you consider this backtalk? - 3/9/2010 6:29:07 PM
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LMKH
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My dad has a habit of trying to get my children to do things they should not do. It is as if his brain is not working right. He will look at me confused when my children get in trouble for it. We had to set down a rule long ago that if they do something wrong, even if it is because they are just doing what Grandpa says, they will still be in trouble. The "Grandpa says" issue has been huge in our house. Early on, it was stuff like him telling the children to say things they should not say or telling them to hide when we try to leave. So, we would be getting ready to leave my parents house and my dad would come up and quietly get them to sneak off with him and he will tell them to hide in the house. Then we will suddenly realize they are gone and they refuse to come out or say anything because Grandpa told them to stay quiet and hidden. This starts as soon as they are old enough to get the idea of hiding. So this happens by the time they are two or three years old. I have had where I put a child on timeout and had Grandpa come in and tell them to get up and quickly run away from us. When I would get after the children, my dad would laugh hard, sometimes even slapping his knee, and saying we can't get upset with them because they were only doing what Grandpa told them to do.
We reached the point with the oldest where we had to tell him the next time, he would be spanked. Then we spanked him then and there, did not delay it. Grandpa, of course, was all in a huff and angry and how dare we spank a child for just doing what he said. I explained to my dad that my child knew not to do it and if he does not like it, he should not try to convince the kids to do bad things. There were a few times when things were a real circus around my dad because he kept putting the kids up to these things. We really put an end to it long ago because once we spanked once for breaking the rules (that spanking incident happened with us trying to collect the child and then trying to put the child on timeout only to have child run away while Grandpa laughed and cheered them on and kept telling them to do it. We were trying to get Grandpa to stop while trying to stop running child. Since we could not keep him on timeout even, we finally said one more time and he would be spanked. We managed to catch the child for a second and tell him but as soon as we placed him back on timeout, my dad told him to quick, run. Child ran and we got him back and spanked him. Grandpa became very angry. That child is now 15 and knows way better than to do what Grandpa says).
Since the garden issue was so much smaller and milder than past issues, I was asking about it. I did make it clear to my dad, again, that if he tells a child to do a bad thing, they will still be punished for the bad thing. Just saying Grandpa told them to do it, or anyone told them to do it, a friend or otherwise, will never be an excuse for misbehavior.
I feel sorry for my dad because I feel like he really does not get it. I don't think he wants to get his grandchildren in trouble or put them up to bad things, but he keeps doing it. I have suspected for a long long time mental illness. He stopped working 10 yrs ago over problems he was having. So I still care about him and don't think we should have to completely avoid him. I think it should be reasonable to teach the children that Grandpa has problems and he does not understand some things so we need to keep that in mind when and if he tells them to do things they should not be doing.
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RE: Would you consider this backtalk? - 3/9/2010 7:03:51 PM
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SurpassingPeace
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I agree with 3Capps. Before I would punish my children over their grandfather's behavior, I would just remove them.
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RE: Would you consider this backtalk? - 3/9/2010 7:21:31 PM
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cynthia
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Count me in on agreement with Maggie.
It doesn't matter why you father is behaving like that, it is harmful to your children and your family. Allowing it to continue is harmful.
My father and his wife were encouraging my children to go against us and we cut off contact over it. It may have been worse than what you are experiencing, but I realize we should have cut off contact before. If you father had a contageous disease, you wouldn't have your children around him until he was well. This is no different. Whether he is mentally ill or not, being around him is causing harm to your children and they should not be subjected to his antics.
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RE: Would you consider this backtalk? - 3/9/2010 7:36:49 PM
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ta_mosquito
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Please do not turn this into a discussion on the OP's methods of dealing with the children in the grandfather's presence, or whether a child should've been punished for obeying Grandpa 10 years ago.
Please keep this on the subject/situation in the first post.
Thanks!
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RE: Would you consider this backtalk? - 3/9/2010 8:21:40 PM
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Sideways
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And of course, we don't actually know if the daughter has done any back talking at all. We only know what the grandfather has said to the parent.
Even so, it's not back talk to politely request that she be allowed to do the garden all by herself this time around.
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RE: Would you consider this backtalk? - 3/10/2010 4:40:32 AM
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serasvictoria
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quote:
It's one thing for the daughter to tell her dad to stay the 'bleep' out of her garden.
That had me cracking up. Reminded me of the Maury Povich eps of "Wild and Out of Control Teens."
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RE: Would you consider this backtalk? - 3/10/2010 8:26:04 AM
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Sunnymom
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I agree that children should be removed, if possible, from the regular influence of a dysfunctional relative. However, they also have to learn to deal with people in positions of authority or influence trying to get them to do things they shouldn't. We teach our kids that no matter where they are or whose authority they are under at the time, our house rules are in force At All Times. Period. If there is a question about what they should do in a particular situation, they know they can ask- and they all have cell phones with txting for this specific purpose. If they disobey our rules, regardless of who told them they could, our kids are still punished for disobeying US.
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RE: Would you consider this backtalk? - 3/10/2010 8:42:52 AM
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macokjc
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quote:
I agree that children should be removed, if possible, from the regular influence of a dysfunctional relative. However, they also have to learn to deal with people in positions of authority or influence trying to get them to do things they shouldn't. We teach our kids that no matter where they are or whose authority they are under at the time, our house rules are in force At All Times. Period. If there is a question about what they should do in a particular situation, they know they can ask- and they all have cell phones with txting for this specific purpose. If they disobey our rules, regardless of who told them they could, our kids are still punished for disobeying US.
Great post, Sunnymom! If we removed our children from all those who tempted them to do wrong, we would have to put them in a box.
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RE: Would you consider this backtalk? - 3/10/2010 10:51:32 AM
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purejoy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sunnymom
I agree that children should be removed, if possible, from the regular influence of a dysfunctional relative. However, they also have to learn to deal with people in positions of authority or influence trying to get them to do things they shouldn't. We teach our kids that no matter where they are or whose authority they are under at the time, our house rules are in force At All Times. Period. If there is a question about what they should do in a particular situation, they know they can ask- and they all have cell phones with txting for this specific purpose. If they disobey our rules, regardless of who told them they could, our kids are still punished for disobeying US.
I agree with this.
LMKH- I guess I am still not clear on if you daughter actually wants to take care of the garden herself? If she does, the way she approaches it with her father would determine if she was being disrespectful or not. If she doesn't care if he helps her, then I don't think there is even an issue at this point. Ignore grandpa.
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RE: Would you consider this backtalk? - 3/10/2010 10:54:41 AM
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Ellie-Mae
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In the situation of the OP, I would not consider it back talk. I would consider it a child that is caught between two authority figures that are asking opposite things from her. I am sure that this is causing your daughter a great deal of frustration and is very confusing. She is not learning good boundaries, and it is causing her to sometimes make poor choices. She/you need to set up a better boundaries between her and her grandfather since she is responsible to you and your husband and not him. Your father should not be given such latitude with your daughter when he is telling her to go against her parents. At this point I wouldn't let him see my kids unsupervised until he cleaned up his act. When you are continuing to let your father do these things, you are sending her mixed messages. You are telling her that she should be one way and then putting her under the authority of someone who is telling her the opposite. By putting her under you father's authority when he is around, you are telling her that she should do what he says too after saying to listen to you even though it maybe 180 degrees from what you are saying to her..
So... is it back talk? How is she supposed to know? You have to teach her by example to use good boundaries with people so these kind of quandaries are easier to navigate.
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RE: Would you consider this backtalk? - 3/10/2010 11:03:11 AM
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Saltlight_2188
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Grandpa should no longer be seen as an authority figure. Explain to the children what YOUR rules are, and that you expect them to be followed no matter what. If they then choose to obey Grandpa over you, then they should be punished.
As for the OP situation, I think that DD could find a respectful way to explain to Dad that she really wants this project to be her own. If done respectfully, no reasonable dad could refuse.
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Both in refusing to do wrong even when someone dear to her is the one encouraging it, and also in learning how to compassionately but healthily relate to someone with possible mental illness.
